...on being abrasive....

[Sean]

Ok, so some people, and there's no need to say who here, think that my comments are a little abrasive and abrupt. Well maybe they are, but then that's me I guess.

Frankly as I see it - what's the point of saying what the good bits are? It's the bits that are wrong that you have to fix. If I don't crit it then assume it's a good bit! :P Yeah I know you worked hard on the picture and are duly proud of it and blah blah blah... I am with all of my pics as well

Gawd - head over to conceptart.org, outcaststudios.com (especially from colorguy!), gingerbox forums or eatpoo.com before it went to flaming (and assuming they deign fit to speak to you in the first place...) and see the crits you get from the pros there!!! They'll take strips off you and the better you get the harsher they are as their expectations rise accordingly. I'm a little snow mouse compared to some of the ripping that I've had there. :P Mind you it forces you to get better that way which is the whole point.

Here's the 3rd pic that I ever coloured (and I drew it too, now you know why I colour other people's stuff...)

http://www.seanellery.com/photoshop/mouse.jpg

and some early ones of sam liu's

http://www.seanellery.com/photoshop/sayn_exalted.jpg

http://www.seanellery.com/photoshop/stoneskin_exalted.jpg

Really crap isn't it? But it was because of all those harsh nasty crits about light sources and colour values and muddy colouring that I am where I am today - almost 'good' at it. Now, over 140 coloured pics down the track over the past 3 years I *still* make mistakes with contrasts and light sources and selections and the like....!! I was told once on gutterzombie that it takes 2 years to become a 'pretty good' colourist and having done the 2 years, I'd agree with them now. I can show you the pics that I made what I call 'quantum leaps' in colouring where there is a distinct change between what I did the previous picture and what I did in the next one, because I worked something out, learnt a new technique or more often, rose to deal with a negative crit.

here they are:

http://www.seanellery.com/photoshop/baggygirl.jpg
the first pic that I used the smudge tool on and more than 4 layers

http://www.seanellery.com/photoshop/aph9_final.jpg
the first pic that I used my custom skintones and gradients on. I also use a channel for the lineart

http://www.seanellery.com/photoshop/cici.jpg
the first pic where I got the light sources right, used gradients for colouring and used more than 12 layers all up

http://www.seanellery.com/photoshop/calibretto_single.jpg
first use of a texture...!

http://www.seanellery.com/photoshop/mexicali.jpg
first use of desaturated colours

http://www.seanellery.com/photoshop/mask.jpg
first pciture done with a wacom tablet - I still use my mouse for 90% of my pics today though coz I prefer it.

http://www.seanellery.com/photoshop/samurai_rivera.jpg
first pic where I really screwed with the colour contrasts of my standard rusty metal photo-texture. I now use it again and again on all sorts of pictures. (see the tutorial about rusty metal on my site)

http://www.seanellery.com/photoshop/steampunk.jpg
first pic where I got the light sources just right according to everyone and also where I worked out my rusty metal texture effect once and for all.

and finally the first picture where I used colour holds on the lineart...

http://www.seanellery.com/photoshop/hunterkiller2a.jpg

so that's the process milestones from 140+ other pictures. All the rest are practise, practise and more practise!!! - and a hell of a lot of 'negative' and 'abrasive' criticism along the way!!!

cheers
Sean

[Jesse "Cadre" Hansen]

keep it up is what I say... I tell all the people in my crew that there is a difference between criticism and critique, it's up to us to distinguish the difference between the two.

We are always constantly learning. We stop learning the day they put the toe tags on us, OR DO WE? I think not. :D

[Thomas Mauer]

Ok, so some people, and there's no need to say who here, think that my comments are a little abrasive and abrupt. Well maybe they are, but then that's me I guess.

This is why I hide behind Richard III's motto that honesty binds me. ;)

Though a good critique also points out the things a person has done right, Sean. If you tell people where their strengths are before going into what they should work on, they know... where their strengths are.

[Noble Larimer]

I have to agree that no one likes to hear bad comments on their work, BUT if you don't hear them you'll never know anything is wrong, and never strive to improve.

As a writer I don't want to hear, that story was too wordy, or this character isn't believable after I spent days or weeks thinking up the concepts, and scripts, etc.

But as much as it sucks it helps us to improve gang.

That which doesn't kill us only pisses us off, and hurts like hell.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, so I'll shut up :D

[logan57]

Sean, you make a valid arguement, But I agree with Thomas that A little encouragement about the things that a person does well aaalso goes a long way. As an artist who does it all from start to finish I strive to do the best I can. I read tutorials on the things I dont know and experiment with the things i do. Your site has been most helpful in showing me new ways to do coloring. I recomend it to anybody starting out, who wants to learn how to color. Just remember that you were once in our shoes.:D

[Alfred Paige]

Bottom line

We all have to crawl before we walk.
And that is why we are all here, to crawl together.
The more we help and push each other the faster we all will be running sooner.

So stop Bit#&ing.

[William Ward]

Writers are the worse for this I find, 90% of the time they simply think everything they write is great (and I mean they seriously think they are just a small step below Frank Miller) and are closed to any feedback that says different.

[mudcat]

First off, I know this thread is directed at me. I told more than a handful of people that I thought Sean was being a little abrasive after I saw king's reaction. King has always been extremely good about taking critiques on all the boards I visit, and for him to get upset about it, well, it bothered me. At one point, I wasn't even going to enter the contest simply because of seeing someone like king getting upset. Obviously it got back around to Sean that I had said this. I'm man enough to admit that I did say it.

Now then...

Critiquing is all well and good. I get my colors thoroughly torn apart by a few people, but there's a reason I go to them for critiques. For every single thing wrong they find in my work, they also make sure to tell me everything that I did do right so I don't forget it either. That's helped me develop a LOT more than just pointing out all the negatives.

[Jesse "Cadre" Hansen]

wow, I didn't even know this was directed to anybody in particular... I try to encourage as much as critique... one of my true joys is to look at others artwork. If I tear something apart, I usually give ways to fix and the why I stated the things are wrong. (Jesse runs toward the back running for cover before the tomatoes start flying) ;)

[mudcat]

No tomatoe flinging from me :D

[Jesse "Cadre" Hansen]

lol... then come hang out under that table... I think it's safe over there... lol
:)

No tomatoe flinging from me :D

[William Ward]

I didn't know this was directed either, or I would not have posted.

[Noble Larimer]

I'll be the first to admit that writers have an ego bigger than their dicks.

Which for me isn't saying much...but I digress...

I thought when I first started writing that I was doing some kick ass stuff, Future's End was the first thing I wrote out of the gate, and the characters, story ideas, just overall I thought it was the best thing since the bible.

Then about two years later I finally had an artist sign on board and I went back to look at the first issues I had written...

Holy fuck was I the suck.

I didn't realize how much I had learned by writing, and going to other message boards since I started future's end.

The dialogue was hoaky, the pacing was a mess, and there was WAAAAY too much yammering, and panels per page. An artist would have went insane trying to get all that in one place.

I went back and kicked it about the head, until it became what it is today. Is it perfect now? Probably not, but then I know it's a hell of a lot better than what it originally was.

There's a lesson here, I just seem to have forgotten what it was.

Hmmm...don't do drugs?

Forget it. I suck at this.

[Jesse "Cadre" Hansen]

LOL... always a pleasure hearing from the Noble man... :)

[mudcat]

And his little signature avatar guy fits so well with that post!

[Victor Cabanelas]

Boy, I remember the first crit I got at DW. IT was a Daredevil pic and got so smashed up that it really wounded my pride. It took me almost 2 years to get some positive feedback over there.

I always try not to be too hard with the C&C and point specific things whenever it´s possible. Also, I try to mention things that I think were done right.

[Rich Leazer]

On some of my first writing pieces I had so much red ink on the pages from the editor that I asked if Deer Season had opened early.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Dave Wachter]

Last year, the guy who runs a very popular comic art forum (which shall remain nameless) told me : "I haven't the foggiest idea what this piece of art is supposed to be." Now that's constructive criticism!

[titaniumgorilla]

Constructive criticism.
This is what we all are looking for when we post our picture, colors, or words onto forums like these. Now lets break it down all proper like......Be CONSTRUCTIVE!...not de-constructive. When you give someone constructive criticism, it should be to help this person with his/her problems.
Now, this is the reply that started all of this.
hmmm... is there any point in my doing this now...?

personally I think Logan's flames look extremely fake (lemme guess - eye candy plugin huh?) and out of place and I'm shuddering at his background in general... but if that's what you guys like...????

So far all I have done is the flats...

Sean

I do not see the 'constructive' part of constructive criticism here.
This was a reply to someone whom, I assume is fairly new to coloring.
IMHO, I believe this is one of the most callous and cruel posts that I have seen in my year of coloring and posting on forums.

If you don't have anything good to say about something don't say anything!
Maybe that's why some people don't get responses on what they post, Sean.


Thanks for listening,
Felton

[logan57]

nuff said!!!!:D

[D.L. MacPherson]

I think you all suck.


*runs away*

:-P

[Dave Wachter]

If you don't have anything good to say about something don't say anything!

I don't agree with that statement at all. You don't learn by only hearing positive statements. Constructive criticism isn't about praise, it's about offering usefull information that will help lead to improvement. And that means pointing out the bad.

While Sean's post may have been harsh, and a few of the words were not constructive(like about the background), he brought up legitimate points(like about the fire).

[mudcat]

Constructive criticism isn't about praise, it's about offering usefull information that will help lead to improvement. And that means pointing out the bad.

And I don't totally agree with that statement. A lot of people, especially us beginners, need to know what we did right in order to keep practicing it so they we don't regress in that area.

It's easier to offer negative criticisms than it is to offer a positive one. Would it have been so hard to say something even as small as "You've chosen a good color scheme, but here's some stuff you might want to work on."?

Granted, I can take negative crits all day long. I do like having positive crits thrown in so I know what I did right, but that's just me. And when I offer crits to someone, I try my best to crit em the way that I like to be critiqued. If someone wants to just throw only negative crits/comments, then they should be able to handle it in return.

As far as that quote of Sean's crit, yes, it's a bit harsh, but it's pretty condescending everyone that had complimented Logan57 on his efforts up to that point as well.

[D.L. MacPherson]

This business requires thick skin.
Remember: you are posting on a public forum. Not everyone sees things the same way and occasionally you will receive comments from someone who is direct and straight to the point (ie. "you suck." Hey-- I've seen it!).
The important thing is to take away what you can from a person's comments and drive on. Trust me-- the big boys aren't afraid to tell someone that they suck. It's easier to learn how to deal with it on this level than to end up at one of the Big Two and receive the aforementioned comments and deal with it in an inappropriate manner.
You may not agree with what I'm saying, but I feel that I have a pretty good grasp on the industry and a nice little bit of experience behind me.
This is not a hateful statement-- it's just the way I see it. :)

[Adam Geen]

This business requires thick skin.
Remember: you are posting on a public forum. Not everyone sees things the same way and occasionally you will receive comments from someone who is direct and straight to the point (ie. "you suck." Hey-- I've seen it!).
The important thing is to take away what you can from a person's comments and drive on. Trust me-- the big boys aren't afraid to tell someone that they suck. It's easier to learn how to deal with it on this level than to end up at one of the Big Two and receive the aforementioned comments and deal with it in an inappropriate manner.
You may not agree with what I'm saying, but I feel that I have a pretty good grasp on the industry and a nice little bit of experience behind me.
This is not a hateful statement-- it's just the way I see it. :)


Thick skin indeed. You wanna be in this business? Put it on.

[Victor Cabanelas]

I do not see the 'constructive' part of constructive criticism here.
This was a reply to someone whom, I assume is fairly new to coloring.
IMHO, I believe this is one of the most callous and cruel posts that I have seen in my year of coloring and posting on forums.


(not trying to hurt any feelings, but) that wasn´t violent at all. And it´s constructive at least in the part where it points out what looks wrong (at least that´s how I reckon when some crits are costructive).

Oh, and I forgot to say that I love getting tough crits whenever I post anything.

[logan57]

I guess my real arguement is, I can take critisium like any body else and I look forward to hearing everybodys comments on my work. I also realize that not everybody sees things the way I do. So if Sean thinks my painting sucks its OK, because he is just one voice. I can either take great offence to it or blow it off, thats my choice how I deal with it. But what I would like to know is who made Sean the official spokes person on what sucks and what dont. He is very good at what he does ,but even he admits he has a long way to go. Now we can all go back and fourth about this or agree that we all disagree and move on. I chouse to move on. Thanks Sean for the crits.:rant

[titaniumgorilla]

You know logan, you're right! It's probally not the first or last crit you'll get like that, so use it to your advantage. If you color each piece the best you can, learn from the last, and have a good attitude, then you'll have published work in no time. Take Sean for example: As he'd stated at the beginning of the post, he's done over 140 pictures in the 3 years that he's been coloring. He posts at multiple forums to get feedback from the pros...........and this was his biggest chance at getting his work on a cover.


Bust your ass logan, you can do it in 70 pics!
Felton

[Dave Wachter]

;)

[titaniumgorilla]

Thanks Dave, I got a little carried away, the message has been edited.

[Trin Gutierrez]

Can I have a word on this.

Let me put it in some military terms. Are you just pointing out a problem or are you also offering a solution? Constructive critisism should be about pointing out areas of concern and "offering" helpful solutions. Something that you have learned that might help the person out with their problem. If we truly are a family here then we should be "helping" each other out even if we are in competition. There are ways to do that without making it seem personal and or an attack on someone.

Also keep this in mind. Some of us are just starting out while others have been doing this for several years now. Would you say the level of experience is a bit skewed? It takes a lot of guts, A LOT OF GUTS, to post anything on a public forum and get critiqued. No matter how professional the critique may be, none of us wants to hear that our work has problems whether it does or not. You are a lier if you say you post just to get C&C's when secretly deep down you want at least one person to say "Man, I really like that!" I know I do. With the school systems cutting back all over on the non-core curiculum programs such as art, music, and languages, I encourage as many people as I can to create in whatever way they can. I have the pleasure of working with artists, writers, photographers, videographers, musicians, and many others who never get recognized at all except by their immediate friends and family. What would the world be like without them? I don't want to know.

*breath* Wow!, Sorry for the rant.

Trin

[Alfred Paige]

The important thing here is that no matter what Seans commits was,
Logan57 took them and came back with better colors and showed that he can adjust and improve.

And for that i give the man respect.

It's not what anybody says about your stuff, It's all about how you take it.
And Logan57 took it like a man.

[Trin Gutierrez]

Good point!

[Bong Abad]

comments, criticisms, suggestions etc. they're all good. its how you take them--ignore or take it in, all up to the individual.

if that doesn't make sense, :) it does to me.

[Sean]

ermmm... I seem to have started something here haven't I...? :scared

I wasn't speaking specifically about the sword cover for this thread. If I don't get it then of course I'll mutter dark and nasty words for a few minutes but the final decision there will be whatever happens and what rich and trin etc decide, as it's their comic book afterall. But, if I don't get this one then there'll be another the next day, so what happens, happens....

I've got a $60k day job and just do this for fun and hobby and the occasional extra beer money and sure it'll be a rush to get published on something somewhere. But I also have 2 - 3 offers every week for someone who wants me to colour their comic for them in some way (usually a so called 'cut of the future profits' - yeah right!). Lately because I've been saying "No I don't have time at the moment" so much I've begun passing names of people that may have the time to do what they want and who I feel are good enough to do it and deserve a break. I'll only do it for someone's comic who is prepared to pay NOW and upfront, as the future profits idea is a load of crap IMO. You know who you are in this because I email or PM you about having done so. (beyond that of course it's up to you to sell your skills...)

I just don't see the point in beating about the bush on comments all that much and don't expect others to do otherwise back at me. I've had total no hoper amatuers (such as some of the megatokyo mob and polykarbon) tell me all sorts of things about my pics in the past and I've gone 'yeah right...whatever' and then I've had guys who work in the business, doing this sort of thing daily, tell me the same thing and I've had to go.. 'hmmm... well in that case...' and so adjust or modify accordingly.

For instance look around ledheavy, DW, GZ, topcow, dandojo etc and see how many people caned me on the blood effects of the sword pic? It took me *4 attempts* to get that looking even half decent and it STILL needs work! Plus the metal hilt is as steve firchow, who is the closest person I have to a mentor, says looks like 'cheese' and so that still needs work before it's ready to publish once and for all....and that's according to the pros.

So I can take crits as much as anybody else, (check F!nch at penciljack - that guy REALLY doesn't like my stuff, and colorguy on outcaststudios can be pretty vicious on my stuff as well ) - and if I think you're right, then I'll take it into account and make adjustments. Maybe not on that picture but certainly for future pics, it all depends on whether I've had enough of that pic or not and want to move on to something else. Otherwise I'll brush it off.

I was just trying to express how I felt about crits and comments and why I say what I say and it wasn't directed at logan or mudcat or anybody in particular here on RS. It was more a reaction to crits I get from all over the place and I could just as easily have posted this thread on those other forums as here. It just that it seems to have been more of an issue here on RS of late than elsewhere.

I feel that this thread is now starting to degenerate into a flame attack and people will start taking things personally so perhaps it's for the best if the mods and admins either lock or delete this thread entirely now that people have had a chance to say their piece...?

cheers and apologies to all

Sean

[Trin Gutierrez]

Thank you for your professionalism. Whatever you do, don't stop posting because we all love to see your work. I know I do.

Trin

[Victor Cabanelas]

I feel that this thread is now starting to degenerate into a flame attack and people will start taking things personally so perhaps it's for the best if the mods and admins either lock or delete this thread entirely now that people have had a chance to say their piece...?


No, don´t close this thread!

Blood! We want BLOOD!